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 #5506  by AndrewLD
 16 Jan 2020, 14:42
NigelP wrote:
16 Jan 2020, 13:05
Still puzzled here Andrew.
Are you now suggesting that you are performing a shook swarm as a method of swarm control, rather than as you said earlier for varroa control?
I'm also concerned that you say you don't like to disrupt bees etc but are prepared to seriously disrupt them with a shook swarm.
I've still yet to see any argument that suggests performing a shook swarm on healthy bees is good idea.
"Are you now suggesting" - actually if you read the first post I said swarm control and swapping out old frames. The varroa came in later as an added thought because I sometimes get to the spring with a question-mark over whether I can wait until August when I normally do varroa control. It's you that have swopped the reasons around.

There's a lot of factors at play here and I have to consider the whole picture, which is where I started with the planning meeting. The situation is that my ideal number of hives is just 4 and I can accommodate 8 (plus the odd poly-nuc or two). I do everything I can to avoid swarms including the use of bait hives that are deployed to catch any that I miss when I have to go away but which are now collecting the swarms of nearby beekeepers who don't seem to control their swarms - it's becoming a nightmare. I have a neighbour that has moved to the country but comes round as soon as a bee or wasp (they are the same you know :!: ) goes anywhere near them and I do not want him complaining to the council because that would likely end my beekeeping. I seem to be constantly going to 7 hives because of artificial swarm control and/or housing other people's swarms.
So I do everything I can to prevent swarms, my queens are young (none seem to last these days to make it to old age) and I practise swarm prevention measures (giving space, putting in foundation to meet the wax drawing urge, nicking brood comb, splits (given away) etc etc.). Artificial swarm control is the last resort because it lands me with another colony but still better than the swarm that gets away.
That's where I started with this year's plan. I have couple of colonies that are all that I could ask for (nice to work, pleasant to share my garden with and productive enough for my needs) - prime target for a split. Two of the others are OK but not ones I am special about and they are on comb that needs changing (4/5 years old), the last colony is due to go to a new home in March (I think that makes 5 if my arithmetic is correct).
Given my plan for this year, I am going to end up with 6 hives (including the two splits) and now I have to consider the other two hives plus any swarms that the other beekeepers let go just at the time my bait hives are open. So I was thinking that a shook swarm would be my preferred method of swarm control on the other two hives (the ones I am just OK with) if my swarm prevention doesn't work and it would solve the comb issue (which may not be an issue if I have done Adam's Bailey Comb Change method).
My head's spinning with all this but you did ask :|
I forgot - you asked about disrupting the bees - how could I think of doing a shook swarm if I didn't like disrupting the bees to do oxalic acid? The difference is one is done during a flow and when the colony is growing and in peak brood production whereas the other done is done when the colony should be quietly overwintering and left alone - that's my philosphy and I think you have confirmed that the artificial swarm control is anything but mimic-ing a natural swarm. I'd love to just let the colonies surplus to my capacity just swarm and take their chances in the big wide world but that is hardly responsible (although quite a few beekeepers I know seem to do just that).
 #5509  by Patrick
 16 Jan 2020, 17:43
I'd love to just let the colonies surplus to my capacity just swarm and take their chances in the big wide world but that is hardly responsible (although quite a few beekeepers I know seem to do just that).[/quote]

Bravo on that sentiment.

I know people take views on this but I believe clipping queens is the only way to ensure in the real world you don't actually lose swarms. As long as you are inspecting regularly you should not normally lose queen or bees, but if you make a mistake or life intervenes you may get up to three weekly inspections worth to spot whats happening before your bees leg it, as in my experience clipped queens do not attempt to swarm as soon as the first cell is sealed and are usually still present for quite a while afterwards. I know people are sensitive to the possibility of losing a clipped queen or have issues with cutting half a wing off but I do wonder if that is sometimes making a principle out of a basic unease about safely handling queens. I am rather more sensitive to losing 15000 workers (and the queen) into someone else's chimney and the whole lot being destroyed by a pest controller. For me, it was the game changer in swarm control.

I'd love to give advice on reducing hive numbers - but in all good conscience I can't. I am totally rubbish at it :D
 #5510  by NigelP
 16 Jan 2020, 19:07
Totally agree with wing clipping, also keeping non swarmy bees. My oldest queens will be entering their 4th year next season, no sign of swarming. Probably some supercedure this coming season.
Swarm control, try some Snelgrove boards and don't get too hung up on the timings of opening and shutting the wedges. Gives you your cake and you can eat it :)
Also understand the difference between Snelgrove method 1 (prevention) vs Method 2 (Swarm control). Both work and keep your hive footprint the same.
I'm afraid I still think knocking colony development back about 6-8 weeks with a shook swarm is a weird illogical approach to either swarm control or varroa control. But each to their own.
 #5512  by AdamD
 16 Jan 2020, 19:53
For swarm control. I was glancing through Clive De Bruyn's Practical Beekeeping book the other day and noticed a suggestion he made which he said is fairly effective to stop a colony swarming that might be about to, and that is to put in a super of foundation between the brood box and the (filling) supers. I guess that the added extra space and opportunity to draw wax and moving a lot of the bees away from the brood area is enough to calm the swarming urge. Might be worth a try sometime!
 #5513  by Patrick
 17 Jan 2020, 00:12
I have Clive's book and it is excellent.

If by "about to swarm" he means are starting to raise swarm cells then I have tried the knocking down and adding super trick and it did not work for me, they carried on regardless. If he means at a stage earlier to that then maybe - but aside from seeing polished queen cups, I am not quite sure how I am knowing that? If he means if they seem congested in the swarming season they will go. but can be dissuaded by giving extra space and work to do, then yes.

Or am I failing to heed my beekeeping Yoda and using the Force I should be?
 #5514  by AndrewLD
 17 Jan 2020, 08:46
I think we may be quoting Clive De Bruyn a little out of context. If the quote to give the colony a super of foundation over the QE is from the panel on page 199 then it is qualified by the main text which says "if queen cells are removed then other measures should be taken at the same time ..... (see panel); which makes more sense because adding a super only relieves congestion as well as giving idle young bees something to do..... A useful measure if the bees have been confined by bad weather perhaps? Some swear by adding an empty super under the brood box but again, all that is doing is to relieve congestion and doesn't address the other prime factors involved.
Sadly, all these various measures have side effects; my giving lots of super space to ensure the bees have space to store and move nectar around in the drying process seems to result in me permanently ending up at the end of the flow with a load of frames that are half-filled - just one of the reasons I now always leave a super on the hive when the rest come off.
Once they have got the idea to swarm only a crisis seems to work, removal of honey, removal of brood (I mean a few frames transferred to other colonies but actually, now I think of it, take the lot and that would be a shook swarm :D )
 #5516  by Patrick
 17 Jan 2020, 11:31
Yes all that makes sense. On the space question - if they are congested they may well swarm but it is not true to say if they have loads of space they won't. As mentioned, once I see queen cells I now just get on and split and be done with it, usually a Snelgrove II or close to it. Quick, very easy and pretty reliable.

Its a tricky one on how much is enough and how much is too much to ensure they cap full supers- it depends on the colony size, local nectar availability and the prevailing weather as just three factors. I put on more supers for the first flow and fewer for the second to ensure by the second extraction end July all remaining combs are full and capped. I don't expect swarming after end June, so am okay with supers being a bit crowded in July before final extraction. Don't always get it right obviously.
 #5517  by NigelP
 17 Jan 2020, 13:33
Add in genetics.
My local bees are annual swarmers regardless of room or added empty supers.
 #5518  by AndrewLD
 17 Jan 2020, 15:01
Patrick wrote:
17 Jan 2020, 11:31
Its a tricky one on how much is enough and how much is too much to ensure they cap full supers- it depends on the colony size, local nectar availability and the prevailing weather as just three factors. ........... I don't expect swarming after end June, so am okay with supers being a bit crowded in July before final extraction. Don't always get it right obviously.
A 1950's author Kenneth Clarke went to great lengths to explain his theory on just getting the bees to a point in June when they wouldn't think it worth swarming and I do the same - not worry too much after the end of June.
But I do have another reason for leaving on a super. I find the bees much nicer to live with if they have a super to play with and I never like to leave them short as some appear to do judging by the e-mails from the NBU in August....
When the hives are in your garden it's important that we all get along with each other.
 #5519  by AdamD
 17 Jan 2020, 17:06
I agree that it's difficult to know when a colony is going to go unless there are well-developed queencells by which time it can often be too late as it's a matter of "I've started so I'll finish" whatever the pesky beekeeper does unless it's really drastic.

I'll have to read my Snelgrove book. I have the book and I have the board, but never used it for the purpose.

I have read in some of the older book about the desirability of having hanging space under the brood frames to reduce congestion although it's not something that's mentioned much nowadays.