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British Beekeepers Association Official Forum 

  • Fondant and colony productivity

  • More advanced beekeeping discussion forum.
More advanced beekeeping discussion forum.
 #1444  by cambsbeekeep
 01 Dec 2018, 11:30
I feed my colonies in the autumn after removing the honey harvest, and try to leave some frames of honey in the hive over winter, supplemented by Invert syrup which they take down to store. Then in late December/ear;y January I have previously put a block of fondant on the top of the crown board over the hole, as an insurance for them to nibble if needed. I have in the past used bakers fondant from supermarkets, as many colleagues in local BKA do. I am wondering if I should be using instead one of the more expensive fondants from beekeeping suppliers (Thornes, Maisemore et al), and if so which is recommended by users here? Also, should I consider using one of the "pollen substitute" fondant blocks in the spring/late winter to encourage colony growth (and again, if so which would be recommended)? Thanks
 #1447  by Patrick
 01 Dec 2018, 23:04
Hi there CBK and welcome to the Forum.

I too use bakers fondant in 12.5 kg blocks either from a baking supplies wholesaler, a beekeeping supplier or ... a local baker who adds a couple of quid into what he pays and everyone’s happy.

I can’t speak from experience about other products but they may be made up of different proportions of glucose, sucrose etc. When I started there were many older beeks who swore by cane sugar over beet sugar.

If you only have one or two hives then certainly the more expensive options may be worth a go if they are easily obtainable. I doubt in terms of the bees there is much in it in terms of carbohydrate advantage. As regards pollen supplements or substitutes I think it very much depends on what is naturally available at the time you are thinking of using it and what nectar source you are thinking to build them up to exploit. Big colonies are certainly better when there is something for them to forage for but if not and you build up very early you could end up with them either swarming early or risking starvation. Around me there is usually plenty of early pollen from willow, but they do have to be able to fly to collect it. I may experiment next year with pollen myself to see if it gives any advantage but there is no real flow until the apples blossom as there is usually little rape locally. Around you it could be different.

Randy Oliver’s Scientific Beekeeping website has some interesting field trials of pollen feeding albeit in California in a prolonged drought - it might be different around you in a wet February! Always interesting to experiment.
 #1448  by Steve (The Drone)
 02 Dec 2018, 00:04
I always used to put bakers fondant above the hole in the crown board once the syrup had been removed in Autumn. Unfortunately bakers fondant can go very solid when cold so it needs good insulation above it to allow the warmth from the colony to keep it edible. Pollen substitutes such as Candipollen Gold ( other brands also available!) remain pliable and when I've given the bees a choice between fondant and Candipollen, then the fondant is ignored.
Giving a pollen/ fondant feed in spring to promote the Queen into laying mode works, but, but, but, it's worth keeping a very good eye on the long range weather forecast. As Patrick says, stimulating colony growth before a cold snap can lead to starvation. Knowing when local crops are due to come into flower means that you can work back to your stimulation date to gain foragers ready to make use of it.
Wouldn't be fun if it was easy!
Steve.
 #1450  by Patrick
 02 Dec 2018, 15:03
Crikey Tony, are we looking after the same apiary?! I could have written virtually the same post this year!

Interesting about the candipoline gold Steve. Never tried it, sounds like the bees like it though. As I said before I probably run a relatively low input / medium output operation as it’s a hobby which competes with plenty of other things. As a consequence I am usually content the bees generally develop at their chosen pace. Some of commercial practices in the US to build up colonies for pollination contracts in California are entirely understandable in context but have to be taken as such. I am always a bit in awe of the scale of many US operations.

I suspect we sometimes feed syrup to stimulating laying at times of pollen shortage and it might then make all the difference if there is nectar to collect.

One small point. We had a very reduced swarming incidence locally this year (which is probably why many folks managed bigger crops as the colonies stayed bigger rather than being split). I suspect many colonies will be carrying older queens as a consequence and may have lower daily laying rates maybe.

I would not be surprised as a consequence if we see significantly more swarming in 2019 as their queen substance production reduces with age and if spread over bigger colonies ... bingo!
 #1455  by AdamD
 02 Dec 2018, 20:25
I know there are suppliers who push various supplements who make it seem that they should be the norm and used regularly. However, my view is that provided there is enough forage, then pollen substitute should not be needed. If there is a dearth - say unusually poor weather in spring - then it could help, but it seems that bees tend to sort themselves out after such an event in any case. And if you HAD to feed pollen substitute every year, then perhaps the apiary is in the wrong place!

For carbs - I hope that the colonies are well fed by mid October with sugar syrup supplementing what the bees have gathered for themselves, so no more intervention should be required. (Large colonies will winter in a double brood box or have a super under the brood box). However I have some bakers fondant from BAKO which I can use as sometimes nucs will need it, come Jan/Feb/March. From early March, syrup can be used again.
 #1456  by Chrisbarlow
 02 Dec 2018, 21:43
i use bakers fondant 12.5kg in winter, I agree about it can dry out but if you wrap the stuff in cling film or put it in a curry containers then this doesnt seem to happen.

I do use pollen substitute and I have found my colonies over winter much stronger. I tend to use ultra bee from bee-equipment as this is the one that performed best in trials by randy oliver AKA scientific beekeeping.

i do find my bees bring in quite a bit of pollen but they just overwinter stronger with pollens subs. i believe its not just about bringing in pollen but the quality of the pollen is very important. for example a high protein content or essential vitamins and minerals that the bees need, may not be present in the pollen being brought into the hive in Autumn.

i also feed pollen subs in Spring to help with and stimulate early brood rearing in anticipation of an OSR crop, queen rearing and making early nucs up.

There appears to be much more thinking going on now about quality of feed for bees regardless where it comes from and how it affects health and diseases present in the hive.
 #1461  by Chrisbarlow
 03 Dec 2018, 20:25
Patrick wrote:
02 Dec 2018, 23:49
Do you use the utra bee powder dry or as a cake?. I can't bring myself to use the word patty. Oh, I just did.
Ive tried three ways. dry as a powder is a bit of a nightmare as it went everywhere, wont do that again.

Ive added it to syrup but it kind of messed up the rapid feeder which appeared to have more on it than the bees actually consumed.

As a "cake" is my prefered method. Ive tried 2 ways of applying it and both are fine. One is making cakes up and putting a set amount in a freezer bag and slashing that bag and then putting on the frames and the 2nd way as a "mush" straight on to the top bars without a bag.

my recipe is 2 parts sugar, 2 parts ultra bee, 1 part water and a dash of vegetable oil. works a treat in Autumn, late winter and early spring. or as a weight, 1kg sugar, 1kg ultra bee, 1/2kg of water and the dash of oil.
 #1464  by Patrick
 03 Dec 2018, 23:24
Cheers Chris, that's really useful to know. I fancy a bit of an experiment next year as several of my colonies came out of the later winter pretty small. That being said, they built up and made use of the heat pretty well in due course so it would be interesting to find out if a bit of a lift equalled them up sooner.
 #1469  by NigelP
 04 Dec 2018, 09:04
Try a slurry of sugar and feebee and lay it along the top of the frames. I found the bees preferred that to a stiff patty which they seemed reluctant to take (at least mine did).