Foundation useage

[Alfred]

Or lack thereof.
Sorry to monopolise the section!
I put new foundation in new frames in all the new colonies.
I was wary of not letting them run of room.
Half was from Thornes and half Maisemores.
They will not go near any of it.
When the original frames they arrived on became fully loaded they all skipped the foundation and went over to the north end of the boxes and made a fantastic job on the various foundationless experiments I have concocted.
Unless they start making use of it ,or I swap it out for my creations then they will be short of space.
There's already some extra lobes been drawn on the sides of the full frames,and the odd shallow frames have been perfectly converted to deeps which is a little unstable in hot weather.
Any ideas or opinions?

[AdamD]

Bees often ignore foundation and build comb in any available space (i.e. larger than the bee space) unless they have no option.

[Chrisbarlow]

If you put a new box and new frames on top of the existing box then Sometimes bees don't like going up, I would checker board them, new foundation with the drawn comb. Top and bottom box.

If your going down the foundationless route. Look at this here.
https://www.theapiarist.org/foundationless-frames-update/

A big tip, you get a lot of drone brood appear, I remove it and let them make more. The bamboo sticks are excellent at holding comb in place.

It's also worth mentioning that if your local flow has curtailed then they might not have the resources coming in to draw comb in quantity.

[NigelP]

made a fantastic job on the various foundationless experiments I have concocted.

Yes...stop playing around with foundationless experiments.
Don't give them choices, force them to work what you want.

[Patrick]

Arguably, one of the breakthroughs that made the removable frame hive a practical proposition was the quantification of bee-space. The use of foundation evenly spaced in frames encouraged combs to be drawn straight, parallel and even and so interchangeable. It also meant a higher proportion of worker cells to be drawn out. Free comb is wonderful stuff to see but is tricky to manipulate, inspect, for disease, find the queen or see queen cells and is often built eccentrically.

As any beekeeper who has only partly filled a box because they ran out of frames and made a mental note: - come back with more frames next week because they have enough to be getting on with in the meantime - will tell you, when you come back next (having forgotten the extra frames anyway), you open up to find lovely white new combs drawn down from the crownboard in the open space instead, which if already full of eggs seems a terrible shame to cut down and you leave far too long in situ before biting the bullet or it suddenly snaps off under the weight of honey, brood and bees creating a right mess and some very annoyed bees.

Some people have even done it several times over the years.

Good thing I would never be so daft. Ahem.

[Jim Norfolk]

For their own reasons bees don't like foundation but most beekeepers leave them little choice. I have alternated foundation and foundationless frames for years mainly because I am lazy and like to save on the cost of foundation but also because I feel the bees should be allowed to build what they need even if this means more drone comb and less honey. As long as the frames are pushed together tightly they draw the foundationless parallel to the frames with foundation. Leave them a gap and you get comb built away from the foundation. I agree with Patrick, foundationless frames can be tricky to handle especially if not held vertical during inspections. Foundationless 14 x 12 are a particular problem and one reason I went back to standard brood frames. I think it is advisable for new beekeepers to start with foundation and then if they want experiment with foundationless. It is the trial and error (mostly error) which makes beeekeeping more interesting and fun.

[Patrick]

Now that does sound interesting Jim. Do you use a starter strip or just let them fill the gap? Does the amount of drone comb depend on when you get it drawn out?

Another advantage of brood foundation is the internal wiring which lends some rigidity (on a 16 x 10 frame for a Commercial a free comb is a bit of a monster - I have an adjoining couple at the moment where the bees initially robbed the wax to build other combs.

They then built brace comb between as well so I now have a two frame unit.

I do use unwired thin super foundation routinely in supers. Means I can pick and choose cut comb frames. There are only occasional blow ups in the extractor the first season of being drawn out when I get over enthusiastic.

[Jim Norfolk]

Patrick, I do it the lazy way and just cut out the old comb and pull the wires out.

I have also extracted frames with thin unwired foundation as well as drawn foundationless but use a 4 frame manual tangential extractor and go slowly. I used to be told I needed a larger electric one and have borrowed one to try but with the amount I extract these days it ain't worth upgrading and its good excercise.

[NigelP]

? Does the amount of drone comb depend on when you get it drawn out?

Absolutely...get comb drawn late August Sept...all worker. Spring is as much drone as they can manage to fit in.

[Chrisbarlow]

I concur NP. They do draw a lot of drone at the moment