BBKA Forum

British Beekeepers Association Official Forum 

  • 'Natural' beekeeping

  • share the funny, scary & the completely stupid things you've seen & heard
share the funny, scary & the completely stupid things you've seen & heard
 #9143  by AdamD
 09 Oct 2020, 15:27
Many years ago my father though there was something wrong with his bees and called in the bee inspector, suspecting a notifiable disease. AFB was diagnosed which was believed to have come from a colony in an old church tower. Unfortunately there was no vicar to register the bees with the authorities! Either it was a swarm he collected (I remember going with him as a boy to collect it from an apple tree not far from the church) or it was his bees robbing out the dying colony. As a consequence, Dad's bees were killed by petrol fumes, everything was put into a pit apart from the scorched lifts and roof of his WBC's, and set alight and then buried, as per the bee inspectors instructions.

Spores from AFB can survive heat and cold and last for many years and the above procedure is the only way to deal with the brood disease effectively. If not too bad, EFB can be treated by a shook swarm, subject the bee inspectors instruction.
 #9144  by NigelP
 09 Oct 2020, 17:24
And if you don't inspect you will never know.
Here is a typical AFB frame complete with leaf sticky test.
Not one of my hives fortunately.

Image
 #9145  by AndrewLD
 09 Oct 2020, 20:18
It is a cruel irony that this thread has suddenly mirrored Roger Patterson's latest article in the BBKA News and even crueller that is is under the heading "How Not to Keep Bees". I am reminded of H Storch's caution that those who keep bees in ignorance condemn their bees to a life of suffering and misery.
A 2017 French Senate Committee looked into the multifactorial decline of honeybee colonies in France (then averaging almost 40% a year but now much better). About fifth on the list on the list of factors after Pathogens, pesticides, lack of of forage and hive pests was poor beekeeping...
I feel forced to say that we have indulged this enough - those entering beekeeping need to register and do a god*am course :(
 #9149  by Bobbysbees
 11 Oct 2020, 10:19
AndrewLD wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 20:18
It is a cruel irony that this thread has suddenly mirrored Roger Patterson's latest article in the BBKA News and even crueller that is is under the heading "How Not to Keep Bees". I am reminded of H Storch's caution that those who keep bees in ignorance condemn their bees to a life of suffering and misery.
A 2017 French Senate Committee looked into the multifactorial decline of honeybee colonies in France (then averaging almost 40% a year but now much better). About fifth on the list on the list of factors after Pathogens, pesticides, lack of of forage and hive pests was poor beekeeping...
I feel forced to say that we have indulged this enough - those entering beekeeping need to register and do a god*am course :(
I find "those entering beekeeping need to register and do a god*dam course" far too much of a sweeping statement. Its the sort of thing childless couples say about other peoples kids lol. Not only is it unhelpful and a generalization, it makes people such as myself MUCH less inclined to join my local Beekeeping club , than i otherwise may have been for fear of encountering more dogmatic preachy people demanding the their way is the only way.
I spent a year looking into Beekeeping before i even thought about getting bees. I studied books and online , as well as research papers.
Your statement assumes far too much in respect to the lack of "expert" tutelage anyone entering this hobby might have.
Just because someone has done something the same way for 40 years does not in my opinion make them an "expert".
Far too many people assume that 40 years of doing something one way makes it the ONLY way and the RIGHT way.
Feel free to grab a spear made from flint a loin cloth and club and go hunting! Because obviously men did this for much longer than 40 years so it must be the ONLY way and the RIGHT way to do things.
Sorry if i sound a little peeved and i am not belittling anyone's skills or knowledge, but i dont appreciate mine being belittled either.
My thirst for knowledge led me to look into and study beekeeping , as it did for many others im sure. Please dont make my hobby which is ment to be something pleasurable and relaxing an exercise in "father knows best".
As i said next year, circumstances allowing , i will be looking at doing a course. For now however i am relying on the good people here and elsewhere online to "support" people like myself ,rather than belittle and chastise us. Until things improve and the wealth of knowledge available from courses and mentors becomes available to us all again.
 #9151  by AndrewLD
 11 Oct 2020, 12:11
If, as I did in my first posts, I started by being encouraging and wishing you well Bobbybees then I am afraid I have changed my mind.
Let's just go back and look at some of the things you have said in your posts under the general topic heading of How Not to Keep Bees (!):

Quote: Iv just finished building a long hive in an attempt to try some 0 intervention bee keeping.
The point on AFB/EFB is well made and may require a little more intervention/inspection than i may first have thought i needed.
Im pleased you mentioned stores and swarming as again, i may have over looked this.
Most of my knowledge comes from online research and books.


Looks like you have overlooked a few things. I suggest your research and reading has not equipped you to keep bees on your current level of knowledge. But it is the last but one post from you that did it for me:

Granted i was not aware of my need to report EFB/AFB. Though i do know the need to remove all traces of it when found and to totally isolate affected hives and destroy the wood work. Iv seen a few good videos on youtube on how to recognise different problems from sack brood,bald brood,mites tracial and veroa aswell as AFB/EFB.
I have used Apistan after the summer flow finished and once i pull my last supers of ivy i will be using O.A vape before winter shut down and feeding.


Not only had your research/tutelage failed to identify that AFB/EFB is a notifiable disease, you would have dealt with it yourself quite ignorant of the risks to other beekeepers and their bees. I don't know what books you have read but they can't be up to much because every one I read is at pains to point out that it is a notifiable disease in this country.

If that were not bad enough the last line of that post is full of red flags to a beekeeper. You have used Apistan (OK but I hope you are aware of the potential issue with Apistan and know how to check) and you are going to pull the last supers of Ivy, do an OA vape, before winter shut down and feeding. In that order - really?

You clearly have a view about beekeepers and have convinced yourself that you know enough to keep bees. Sorry but you don't.
 #9152  by huntsman.
 11 Oct 2020, 13:46
bobbysbees; <Sorry if i sound a little peeved and i am not belittling anyone's skills or knowledge, but i dont appreciate mine being belittled either.>

What skills and knowledge would these be?

From what you have posted so far, you haven't displayed any.
 #9153  by Bobbysbees
 11 Oct 2020, 15:15
I do apologise i though the topic came up as Re. Natural beekeeping. As i have said earlier im more than willing to learn of any errors i may be making and am more than happy to attend what ever courses i a) can afford and b) are available. My level of knowledge and skill are probably lacking i grant you. But as iv said im happy enough to seek advise. I just rather felt that i was being insulted if not attacked for showing an interest in a hobby/pursuit that i could take up in these stressful, isolated times. Possibly even reach out and try to find advise , support and possibly friendship. Something as someone with autism i find very hard to do in a face to face setting.
My apologies to everyone i may have offended here and i wish you all well and hope that you can forgive my foolishness in thinking i could be part of a supporting helpful online community. Please take care of each other and again thanks for the advise.
 #9154  by huntsman.
 11 Oct 2020, 16:08
bobbybees; <My apologies to everyone i may have offended here and i wish you all well and hope that you can forgive my foolishness in thinking i could be part of a supporting helpful online community. Please take care of each other and again thanks for the advise.>

You have offended nobody so no need to apologise, so please do stick around.

Perhaps best for now if you ask questions in the 'beginners section' and follow the collective advice/experience of conventional beekeepers. this is not to say you cannot use the other sections. But people will know you are a beginner and reply accordingly.

Courses are sometimes free or a small fee is charged to cover membership and insurance. Search BBKA for your nearest group. Do a course and accept convention (for now.) You can always experiment once you are coming from a good knowledge base. At such a course you will not only make friends but hopefully find an experienced mentor.

Stick with beekeeping for it is a wonderful hobby.
 #9155  by NigelP
 11 Oct 2020, 16:43
Me thinks any future beekeeping courses (if any) are going to be virtual in these covid times. Bobbybees, just ask any old question you need answering. There is plenty of help on here. The worst part of doing courses with a poor organisation is that you then have to unlearn everything when what you were told was gospel fails to transpire.
Most thinking beekeepers are of roughly the same mind, although there are several ways to achieve the same end (hence the different answers) and many have their own favourite methods. Be careful with some of the u-tube vids as many are just nonsense and uploaded by those who have a video camera.
I'm afraid I'm not one for "let alone" beekeeping. If you have animals in your trust I think you have a duty of care for them and bees are no exception. I suspect the main driving idea behind natural beekeeping occurs when you have the hive from hell and daren't go anywhere near them. Most bees are like pussy cats (except my locals) and caring for them is a pleasure and a privilege.
 #9538  by Beeblebrox
 28 Nov 2020, 12:43
> my father though there was something wrong with his bees ... AFB was diagnosed which was believed to have come from a colony in an old church tower.

This is very impressive diagnosis - without opening the colony! Please give more details about how they did this.

It's all the more surprising as it is well attested by people who open wild colonies (Roger Patterson, Tom Seeley etc) that they never find AFB, or indeed any disease, as the weak ones die.

And that foul brood is recognised to be spread primarily by people moving bees around. It was rare before intensive beekeeping then became endemic until the bee inspectors and their Burn Everything policy were introduced. Had your dad moved his colonies to another location before this? Had he bought some bees? Did a neighbour?

> Spores from AFB can survive heat and cold and last for many years

Yes, the only other way I am aware of it spreading is when people import honey and feed it to bees. For example an AFB outbreak in my county (fortunately caught and stopped almost immediately) was suspected to be due to some kind soul leaving an imported homey jar out for the bees to finish off, as there was no obvious route for it arriving among the local beekeepers.