To clip or not to clip and ethics

[thewoodgatherer]

Just wondering what others think about wing clipping. I do clip my queens and must admit it’s saved me a number of swarms but I have noticed that although shorter the wings do look they they heal and lose the straight cut end. Is this detrimental to queen health etc.

[Japey Edge]

I started clipping this year and one colony tried (and failed) to swarm a week later.

I will be clipping in future too, in queen's second season like Patrick does if I remember correctly.

[Patrick]

Jazz, I am hugely flattered you remembered - I can’t remember what I went upstairs for half the time, let alone what I said a while back

Having clipped loads of queens, I have absolutely no evidence of a deleterious effect on them. Indeed due to it appearing to delay any swarming attempts post cell sealing, I actually think I retain more original queens longer than I would if they swarmed successfully with an unclipped Queen.

I personally clip both wings by at least a half. Less than that or just one wing does sometimes seem to let the queen fly enough to lose the lot. There is no leakage of fluid as sometimes suggested and the Queen seems entirely unconcerned, quite often wandering back onto the frame to continue laying.

As you say, I see no good rationale for clipping before the start of the following season. Then if I did do something daft like drop her (would I ever be so cack handed??!) there are the right conditions to make them queenright again. Clip later on, maybe not so.

[NigelP]

As you say, I see no good rationale for clipping before the start of the following season. Then if I did do something daft like drop her (would I ever be so cack handed??!) there are the right conditions to make them queenright again. Clip later on, maybe not so.

You make a good point Patrick. But there may be a rationale for not doing both at the same time. I noticed a few years back when I clipped and marked at the same time I was getting quite a few queen losses by next inspection. i.e queen nowhere to be seen and drawn queen cells. Not in every case but it happened enough times to get me a little worried. Made me wonder if the combination was somehow making the bees think the queen was not right. Of course it may have been my cack handedness and those who clip and mark at the same time may not have ever seen this. Thoughts anyone?
Regardless of any logic or not I now mark 1st and then clip at a later date.

[thewoodgatherer]

[quote=Patrick post_id=7180 time=<a href="tel:1589638217" data-original-title="" title="">1589638217</a> user_id=50]

As you say, I see no good rationale for clipping before the start of the following season. Then if I did do something daft like drop her (would I ever be so cack handed??!) there are the right conditions to make them queenright again. Clip later on, maybe not so.

You make a good point Patrick. But there may be a rationale for not doing both at the same time. I noticed a few years back when I clipped and marked at the same time I was getting quite a few queen losses by next inspection. i.e queen nowhere to be seen and drawn queen cells. Not in every case but it happened enough times to get me a little worried. Made me wonder if the combination was somehow making the bees think the queen was not right. Of course it may have been my cack handedness and those who clip and mark at the same time may not have ever seen this. Thoughts anyone?
Regardless of any logic or not I now mark 1st and then clip at a later date.[/quote]
Yes I mark on the second inspection after she has come into lay and clip following spring on the first warm day during and inspection.

[Patrick]

I think we are all of one mind - I also generally re-mark all queens on the first inspection of the season and then do a round of clipping (if necessary) on the second.

The reasoning is not particularly in response to an adverse response tbh, but that by the time I have gone through and found the Queen, caged her, then marked I usually think that’s enough open brood nest time for first early season look. As I usually clip in the hand, I don’t want to push it if it’s a bit chilly. Often the best early days are the ones I am at work..

Second time round I know I am looking for freshly marked Queens and only the ones that haven’t been clipped before, so it’s pretty straightforward and quick.

[Steve 1972]

I mark and clip at the same time..however after reading the last few posts I will change my method and mark first so I can find her again easily in a few weeks not that I have noticed any problems personally but after reading experienced comments it has swayed me..every spring I find the odd unmarked Queen that was previously marked going into winter so I would rather clip sooner rather than later while she is still marked..

[AdamD]

I do clip and mark - sometimes at the same time, sometimes I mark first and then clip later. Young queens are prone to fly off so I often mark a young queen by holding her to the frame with my thumb and forefinger - with the queen in the triangle space in between. She hardly knows it's happened so is not likely to fly off.
This is roughly what I aim to achieve.

For those that think it unethical, I have never seen an issue with supercedure after a queen has been clipped; no balling for example. And it's also the case that queens can have their wings nibbled if there's something that's not quite right about her. (Not by me but by the bees themselves).
And it's fair to say that a clipped queen that swarms will quite possibly have a better chance of surviving than if the colony did actually leave with a prime swarm.

[Steve 1972]

And it's fair to say that a clipped queen that swarms will quite possibly have a better chance of surviving than if the colony did actually leave with a prime swarm.

Perfect..