Under supering the brood box before winter

[thewoodgatherer]

Hello, I want to try putting the last super under the brood box this winter with the aim that the bees will move the honey up into the brood box. I will then take is away early spring and put it on the top above the QE and hopefully before she starts laying in it ( not the end of the world if she does). I want to use Apiguard this month and will remove the last super so that the wax doesn't get tainted and also to improve effect. What is the latest I can put a super back before the bees wont be in the mood to moving stores about?

[Patrick]

Hi Woodgatherer

Under supering as you describe has several merits and you should find the brood safely clustered in the top box as long as you don't leave it on too long in the Spring. I would simply put it underneath as soon as the Apiguard has finished, no point in waiting. Is the last box full of uncapped frames or do you just prefer to overwinter on honey? You may find that they need encouraging to empty it initially by using a sheet of plastic between the super and the brood chamber with a single finger sized hole in it. That way they "rob out" the honey into the nest brood chamber.

You may still need to consider feeding in addition to a super of honey. Depending on where you are, be aware that they may have little nectar income coming in but the adult bees will still will need supplies and they will also hopefully be raising bees for winter. One super may not be enough to last them from now until possibly April next year and it may need supplementing. Let us know how it works and good luck.

[thewoodgatherer]

Thanks for your reply, last box as its going will be partially filled but fully drawn out, i guess another option would be to spin out the honey while the Apiguard is on, then put the empty super under when Apiguard is off and feed them back the honey watered down 50%. Why i asked about timing is that like many are seeing my bees are still filling supers and the time is getting on.

[AdamD]

By having a super of food as well as a good supply of food in the brood box, you can be sure that the colony won't need topping up during the winter. By putting the super underneath (nadiring as some call it) the bees are in the warmer (top) part of the hive; the super below reduces draughts and is usually empty of stores by spring. I put mine under around the end of September. It will still be warm enough in the hive for the bees to move things (stores) around if they want to. Come spring - the first quick inspection, it is usually the case that the queen has not progressed to laying in the super underneath and therefore it can be withdrawn. If you leave the super underneath for too long, and there's brood in there, it can simply be put above the excluder and after 3 weeks the brood will have emerged.
I generally feed slowly coming up to winter i.e. from about now, rather than feed a couple of gallons in one lump in September. This slow feeding must be more natural for the bees and better for them as it doesn't wear them out processing a glut of syrup and encourages them to maintain a decent brood nest over the next month so you have a decent sized colony to withstand the cold.
There is one proviso about putting a super underneath I should mention. If the brood box doesn't have many stores in it, there will be a gap between the bees at the top of the brood box and the super of stores underneath and this gap will not be crossed when the weather is cold so the colony can starve even when there is food inches below them.

[thewoodgatherer]

By having a super of food as well as a good supply of food in the brood box, you can be sure that the colony won't need topping up during the winter. By putting the super underneath (nadiring as some call it) the bees are in the warmer (top) part of the hive; the super below reduces draughts and is usually empty of stores by spring. I put mine under around the end of September. It will still be warm enough in the hive for the bees to move things (stores) around if they want to. Come spring - the first quick inspection, it is usually the case that the queen has not progressed to laying in the super underneath and therefore it can be withdrawn. If you leave the super underneath for too long, and there's brood in there, it can simply be put above the excluder and after 3 weeks the brood will have emerged.
I generally feed slowly coming up to winter i.e. from about now, rather than feed a couple of gallons in one lump in September. This slow feeding must be more natural for the bees and better for them as it doesn't wear them out processing a glut of syrup and encourages them to maintain a decent brood nest over the next month so you have a decent sized colony to withstand the cold.
There is one proviso about putting a super underneath I should mention. If the brood box doesn't have many stores in it, there will be a gap between the bees at the top of the brood box and the super of stores underneath and this gap will not be crossed when the weather is cold so the colony can starve even when there is food inches below them.

All makes 100% sense. Although putting a super underneath which by then may well be on the way to full I would still plan to feed them until they take no more monitoring the stores they have accumulated rather than just assuming that as they have a full super so they are done for the winter. That said hopefully once I'm satisfied they have more than enough stores an insulated quilt and OMF floor should be all they need until early spring.

[AdamD]

I am a little concerned about the comment about feeding until they take no more. Although you do mention monitoring. A note to others - some bees will just continue to take feed until the queen runs out of laying space so monitoring is definitely required.
The advantage of having a super and a brood box compared to a brood box only is that a single brood box may need to be stuffed full to ensure that bees survive the winter (depends on the weather and the type of bee). With a super and a brood box, there should be sufficient space that the combination does not need to be crammed full - so allows the beekeeper to ensure there is sufficient stores and then if there is good ivy flow (usual but not guaranteed for me), the colony is not crowded out.

[nealh]

For extra room and stores I have done 14 x 12 , double brood and under super faffing.
I now KISS and use only brood and half, work s very well for me. Little or no feeding, leave the bees with the forage they ahve collected and also wait for the Autumn ivy which adds 10 - 15lbs of stores to hives where I live.

[thewoodgatherer]

For extra room and stores I have done 14 x 12 , double brood and under super faffing.
I now KISS and use only brood and half, work s very well for me. Little or no feeding, leave the bees with the forage they ahve collected and also wait for the Autumn ivy which adds 10 - 15lbs of stores to hives where I live.

So presumably you just leave the super box as is above the larger BB and leave to the bees and they move across as and when.

[nealh]

Yes, bees can freely move up to any food as required if it is there, its not a guarantee they will store food above.
The B & H is on a National deep + super, colonies vary how they use the sytsem.
I have one where the Qu hasn't been up to lay at all so it is 75% filled with nectar/honey, other colonies have Qu laying in several of the frames or a mix of both stores and brood.
One colony is using it as how I would like them to, several frames of nice brood pattern in the BB and a small arc of brood in to the half brood with all stores above and around said brood.

B & H is a marmite affair, choose the method that suits your needs and one that your bees prefer or work well with. With all beekeeping it's a trial and error affair what suits one doesn't suit another, no matter what others say or tell you what to do. Don't be afraid to try something different.

[thewoodgatherer]

Yes, bees can freely move up to any food as required if it is there, its not a guarantee they will store food above.
The B & H is on a National deep + super, colonies vary how they use the sytsem.
I have one where the Qu hasn't been up to lay at all so it is 75% filled with nectar/honey, other colonies have Qu laying in several of the frames or a mix of both stores and brood.
One colony is using it as how I would like them to, several frames of nice brood pattern in the BB and a small arc of brood in to the half brood with all stores above and around said brood.

B & H is a marmite affair, choose the method that suits your needs and one that your bees prefer or work well with. With all beekeeping it's a trial and error affair what suits one doesn't suit another, no matter what others say or tell you what to do. Don't be afraid to try something different.

yes I agree with your philosophy 100%, I will try differing methods until I find the ones I like which will not necessarily be the ones my mentors like or approve of. Thier are many methods of beekeeping, some exploiting the bees to a maximum for profit alone, others looking to minimise work or contact with the bees and others to encourage, nurture and promote the strongest and healthiest colonies as naturally and bee friendly as possible, this is my type of beekeeping.