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General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #8583  by Dolly
 26 Aug 2020, 11:20
Hi there I'm glad to say both my hives are queen right and this year I've been lucky enough to have quite a bit of honey from them.
I havent done this before but could I just leave a super pretty much full of honey on each hive instead of sugar syrup. If so then when do I need to remove the supers or should I just leave them in situ.
Thanks :)
 #8584  by Chrisbarlow
 26 Aug 2020, 12:07
Yes you can. You want around 40-50lb of stores for overwintering per colony. I prefer for more towards 50lb

A super holds approx 25lb. That's 2lb - 2 1/2lb per full frames approx .

However there should be several frames of stores in the brood box. A sealed brood frame full holds approx 4 1/2 - 5lb per frame. That's 50lb in a brood box.

The caveat is, the colony still needs laying space.

If they have enough honey and Not feeding autumn syrup is a good thing, as if there is any left in spring, you can harvest then when the OSR is flowering for instance.
 #8593  by huntsman.
 26 Aug 2020, 16:44
Hi Dolly.

Chrisbarlow is correct but I'm at a loss as to why you wouldn't want that wonderful honey your bees worked so hard to get for you.

I suggest you take it and if you haven't a means of extracting, simply cut it into chunks and place in 'Chinese' plastic trays or clean jars. You can eat some of the wax if you like, not to my taste though.

So with the super off leave them alone until mid/late September and then feed them heavy syrup (1kg. sugar to 1 litre of water.) I give mine one kg. bag of sugar each week for six weeks. They will augment this by bringing in ivy nectar at that time.

Follow this up by giving them a 2.5 kg. block of fondant at the start of January.
 #8596  by NigelP
 26 Aug 2020, 17:53
Lucky you with an Ivy flow....no such beast in my part of North Yorkshire, usually flowers late Oct/November around here.
A lot of stores usage over winter depends on hive type. Bees kept in well insulated poly hives need considerably less energy (stores) than bees kept in poorly insulated hives. Also the type of winter (Cold/Mild)determines how much they might need to some extent.
You often get a rogue hive that simply uses up everything you give them and then does require some fondant.
Regular hefting through the winter usually tells you a bit about whats going on and the beekeeper should adapt according to each hives needs. I've still got 2 brood boxes full of frames of stores that I removed this spring. My notes were to feed no more than 5 litres of heavy syrup per hives for this coming winter....but check weights. A lot of mine are coming in light as no flow and lousy weather....we shall see.
But please note here in North Yorkshire I overwinter my bees in Poly hives with insulated varroa trays inserted (in effect solid floors) and Insulated crown board and roof. What applies to overwintering my bees may be way off the mark for someone say on the tropical South coast.
 #8597  by AndrewLD
 26 Aug 2020, 17:55
huntsman. wrote:
26 Aug 2020, 16:44
Hi Dolly.

Chrisbarlow is correct but I'm at a loss as to why you wouldn't want that wonderful honey your bees worked so hard to get for you.
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Follow this up by giving them a 2.5 kg. block of fondant at the start of January.
They didn't get it for us, they got it for themselves.

Because not all are interested in taking off all the honey. I always leave a super for the bees and may still feed to make sure they have enough for winter.
I am late taking off the honey this year but tomorrow's plan is to remove all but one super and get the Apivar on (I said I was late). That super will be nadired and by next March it will be completely empty, No need to feed fondant - but I'll heft to make sure.
The problem nowadays is that warm wet winters mean the bees keep flying and producing brood, don't cluster as they did, and consume stores. A national brood box no longer holds enough and allow for winter bee production - so they run out.

I am on 14x12's by the way and in the tropical South (well Cambridgeshire) which just makes the problem worse.
 #8599  by Steve 1972
 26 Aug 2020, 18:11
Apparently bees can process sugar syrup better than Honey with less feces and feeding 2:1 sugar syrup has the benefit of adding thymol to the mix as that also apparently helps with nosema..also sugar costs around 25p per pound where honey costs £6 per pound...

Regardless of that all my extractable supers are removed to be extracted and jarred..i have quite a lot of them and i always get supers at the end of the season that are not fully capped with unripe honey in them..each colony gets a super Nadired (super placed below the brood box) every end of season for the bees to clear it into the brood box if they need too..
I weigh one side of the hive then the other side and add the two weights together..to weigh i use a heavy duty set of fishing scales and i am happy it the weight exceeds 50lb's ..i weigh or (heft ) more these days fortnightly as i have a feel for the weight now..
As winter progresses and i find any colonies a bit on the light side i feed 2kg of fondant directly on the top bars above the cluster inside of a 2in eke and monitor and top up as required..i have never lost a colony due to starvation in winter doing what i do..

Ps Please do not forget to take the Queen excluder of if you do leave a super on top of the brood box..
 #8600  by huntsman.
 26 Aug 2020, 18:22
Andrew replies; 'They didn't get it for us, they got it for themselves.'

Thank you Andrew. After sixteen years beekeeping it's nice to know this.

He also says; 'The problem nowadays is that warm wet winters mean the bees keep flying and producing brood, don't cluster as they did, and consume stores.

Perhaps this has more to do with the change in honeybee type in the U.K., than the weather.
 #8603  by AndrewLD
 26 Aug 2020, 18:55
huntsman. wrote:
26 Aug 2020, 18:22
Andrew replies; 'They didn't get it for us, they got it for themselves.'

Thank you Andrew. After sixteen years beekeeping it's nice to know this.

He also says; 'The problem nowadays is that warm wet winters mean the bees keep flying and producing brood, don't cluster as they did, and consume stores.

Perhaps this has more to do with the change in honeybee type in the U.K., than the weather.
Every year the NBU has to send out a warning that inspectors are finding starving colonies because beekeepers have taken all the honey. So I will not apologise for pointing out that they do not get the honey for us - and that has to be remembered by all regardless of how long they have been keeping bees.
As for the second part of your reply - call it global warming or just a phase in the weather, the Met office is warning us that winters are getting warmer and of course some/many strains/hybrids/modern bees are more prolific and wintering in bigger colonies needing more stores.
What exactly are we arguing about? Bees nowadays need more stores than they did?
 #8607  by huntsman.
 26 Aug 2020, 20:08
Andrew; 'So I will not apologise for pointing out that they do not get the honey for us - ...'

Nobody asked you to.

And; 'and of course some/many strains/hybrids/modern bees are more prolific and wintering in bigger colonies needing more stores.'

Is that not what I said only in a different way?
 #8615  by Patrick
 27 Aug 2020, 01:09
For maybe different reasons I, like Dolly, will be leaving some unextracted supers on this year.

The general advice about the locally typical amounts of sugar reserves a colony needs to thrive until next Spring is a good reminder however:

It is tempting to think a super of honey may be more than enough to tide them over. In fact it may not be nearly enough, particularly if it is only part full and there is not much extra in the brood chamber. A mild autumn may prompt a prolonged laying spell by the queen and much of that super may be gone by November. As suggested, I would reckon to pile in some extra feed as well - I will be.

It’s always a surprise to learn just how much nectar and pollen a colony needs to support itself and raise brood annually, before any surplus gets stored as honey.