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  • Vape or trickle?

  • General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #5284  by NigelP
 02 Dec 2019, 15:35
Alfred wrote:
02 Dec 2019, 15:06

Can you mix and match vaping and trickling?

I cant remember where but Im sure Ive seen a maverick device powered by a gas canister?
You can mix and match but the issues are different. Trickling works best when broodless. It kills open brood and can damage the queens if used too frequently as they ingest the acidic syrup. OA trickling only works with syrup....no-one is sure why and the OA crystals that form are large and small.
OA vaping can be done any time. A dose now is good..And the crystals are minute and sharp edged.
The bit to watch with vaping is it only hits phoretic mites not those inside brood cells. So normal routine for autumnal vaping is 3 to 4 vapes spaced at 5 day intervals to get the merging varroa as they leave the cells. You get an occasional rogue hive that continues to drop 100's of varroa. Various theories abound as to where they are coming from, but no-one knows for sure. My record was 10 autumn vapes on one hive to get drop numbers down to single figures. It survived and overwintered...

The mode of action of Oxalic acid on killing the varroa is unclear. Some think the vaping crystals dissolve their feet or that ingestion or contact with OA makes their blood stream and internal chemistry acidic and hence prevents many essential enzymes from working. Whatever it does it kills them effectively as long as the application is correct. i.e the dribbling is actually onto the seams of bees or when vaping from beneath an open mesh floor the right quantity is used as much will con dense on the mesh etc etc.

Ohhh and the maverick device device is all of that and more.
I have one.
it's bloody dangerous, an accident waiting to happen. There is no licensing of it as a product ...in fact it would never get a licence as it uses a small creme brullee type gas torch inside an enclosed space to unregulatedly heat a copper chamber . The whole device gets ridiculously hot, so hot you can watch OA sublimating as you add it to the copper cap. It looks like something knocked up in someones garage, which it is.
 #5285  by AdamD
 02 Dec 2019, 16:13
I have a vape and have used it occasionally, however I trickle which is quite quick. It allows a peek to see if stores are present too. If bees are cold, they hardly have enough time to warm up and fly before the top goes back on, however I do wear a veil and have the smoker handy - although they are generally very slow to respond when cold. For a 2 box hive, I trickle down the gaps even if the bees are a way down; I don't break open the hive.
 #5287  by AndrewLD
 02 Dec 2019, 17:54
Alfred wrote:
02 Dec 2019, 15:06
I got an accidental snoutful of fumes off the maqs-that was enough.
..................................................
Kit and smoke are an 'always' with my bunch,Patrick,no matter how small the job is.
Its well past just being unlucky,this lot are highly skilled antagonists.
I got the Mrs planting bulbs in front of the hives last month-raven haired she is and a black jumper on -not bothered
I bring her a cuppa and get walloped within minutes.
Two thoughts on this:
I hate MAQ's - it's useful in an emergency but very stressful for bees. Consider Apiguard - longer but kinder or alternatively go chemical - Amitraze????
Linked to the the first thought. Bees remember a bad experience whether it is MAQ's? or just an inspection when you have been a bit rough. This is not just me saying this, there was some research recently that bees remember these things. If you don't want this to continue you'll just have to make it up to them :)
 #5302  by sean
 06 Dec 2019, 20:46
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/broadcast/read/33537
This should answer the question! Trickle is detrimental to bees lives.
Last edited by sean on 07 Dec 2019, 19:35, edited 1 time in total.
 #5304  by mikemadf
 07 Dec 2019, 14:29
Used MAQs first time this year on hives and nucs. No issues. Instructions to the letter.. (half dose nucs.. ALL Lang jumbo).

Also just vaped - home made vaporiser £3 glow plug, s'hand battery £10 and organic acid vapour filter and P3 particulate filter £9.. Used it for 4 seasons no problems..13 hives in 90 minutes. No varroa issues.. Choose a day when wind is in correct direction and minimal.

Dislike trickling - harsh on bees..

My original lungs all fine..

C
 #5305  by AndrewLD
 07 Dec 2019, 15:31
" Instructions to the letter.. (half dose nucs.. ALL Lang jumbo)" "Dislike trickling - harsh on bees.."

I don't like harsh treatments either but I am intirugued by this post. The first part refers to a half dose and I know that in the US/Canada they have this option but not in the UK because I think the only treatment approved by the VMD is the full dose, which I guess is why the MAQ's instructions say:

A) MAQS beehives strips should only be applied on single or double broodchamber standard Langstroth equipment or equivalent (e.g. Dadant, British
National) full-sized honey beehives, honey bee colony cluster covering a
minimum of 6 brood frames (approximately 10,000 bees). If you move
your nuc’s into full size brood chambers and allow them time to expand to
a full six frames then you can treat with MAQS.


Then there's the point about harsh treatments. Given MAQ's advice about treatments only commencing when the bees have their affairs in order and the need for fully open entrances (I was never sure about that in August when robbers/wasps are about) and given the upset hives I had when MAQ's was applied; I challenge whether MAQ's is not a harsh treatment..... albeit it may be necessary if you really need a rapid treatment. Another quote from their FAQ's:

A) The bees need to have their affairs in order when treated. When running
trials it was found out that the colony assessments were best done 3 days in
advance of the application. If the colonies were taken apart, assessed,
reassembled and then treated shortly after we saw some absconding. It also
increased the risk of queen loss. After an exam it would be best to wait at
least until the next day to apply MAQS.
The fully open bottom entrance should be seen as meeting the minimum
ventilation needed. Having additional entrances does not seem to affect the
efficacy of the treatment. Adequate ventilation is critical with this product.


This is not nit-picking so please don't think that. I am preparing guidance for beekeepers who have to deal with the Asian Hornet's predation in August and then into the autumn. A key point is the reduction of stress on the bees and the predation just happens to coincide with the summer varroa treatment. I'd like to hear whether beekeepers think some varroa treatments cause more stress than others and I have MAQ's at the top of the list :(
 #5306  by Alfred
 07 Dec 2019, 16:00
That's the issue I had with maqs,I only get to the apiary once a week,so leaving even small gaps open was a worry.
The other issue was a nuc which qualified for the six seam minimum for the prescribed dose(which makes no mention of half rations for nucs) and was opened up as securely as I could with an empty super on top.
I just got back in time as the colony was three parts pickled and took a long time to recover.
Never again.
I've got one dose left free of charge if anyone wants it
 #5308  by Patrick
 07 Dec 2019, 17:02
There is always a risk of comparing management when you only know the half of it. However..

I have used MAQs every year since it came out (note to self - probably time for a change?), largely because I found getting main flow supers off, extracted, family holidays, treating apiguard 6 weeks and feeding 3 gals before weather got cold I often ran out of summer. . I know some report no issues but I found treating with apiguard and feeding at the same time usually a non starter. They simply refused to take down syrup from an Ashworth feeder whilst apiguard was on or even after it had been removed. And in hot weather I often thought they were not keen on the thymol either. So I was left with a few light colonies winter starting and increasing stress. I take the view bees might suffer from varroa but unfed they most definitely will starve. What to do?

So MAQs on and off in a week bought time when I needed it. It allows plenty of time to feed before winter and build up beforehand.

There may be a period whilst treating when the queen goes off lay but she will go back to lay up the gaps when the varroa load remaining is much reduced for the new winter bees. I simply don’t treat when the daytime temps are above 25 degrees and leave OMFs open and put an extracted super over the brood box. I totally agree the offset boxes or wide open entrances suggested are a no no with wasps. To date, on up to 20 colonies treated a year, I have had no bearding or absconding and can remember only one going queenless - which could have happened regardless of MAQs.

Combined with an oxalic trickle, varroa was a non issue.

I think it’s time for a rotated treatment next year . Might go back to Apiguard but any other recommendations?
 #5310  by mikemadf
 07 Dec 2019, 19:49
My use of MAQs

Full Lang jumbo plus shallow super.. One dose , one week..OMF open.

5 Frame Lang jumbo nuc- Half dose one week. Some are solid floors/under floor entrance

If I were using National:
1 Brood box - half dose
Doble brood/B and half - full dose
OMF open ...

It's all about hive volumes: 1 Jumbo 5 frame Lang nuc = 1 National brood..

A fukk dose on a National Brood is far too much: hence issues..

I treated 7 hives and si6 nucs: Only on hive showed bearding on day 1. Then none.
No queens lost. No piles of dead bees...
Hives are wooden with inuslated covers or poly. All nucs poly (celotex)
Bottom entrances. half hives have under floor entarnces. Rest have solid floors..
 #5311  by AndrewLD
 08 Dec 2019, 09:02
Patrick wrote:
07 Dec 2019, 17:02
There is always a risk of comparing management when you only know the half of it. However..

.................I found treating with apiguard and feeding at the same time usually a non starter. They simply refused to take down syrup from an Ashworth feeder whilst apiguard was on or even after it had been removed. And in hot weather I often thought they were not keen on the thymol either. So I was left with a few light colonies winter starting and increasing stress. I take the view bees might suffer from varroa but unfed they most definitely will starve. What to do? ...................................

There may be a period whilst treating when the queen goes off lay but she will go back to lay up the gaps when the varroa load remaining is much reduced for the new winter bees. I simply don’t treat when the daytime temps are above 25 degrees and leave OMFs open and put an extracted super over the brood box. I totally agree the offset boxes or wide open entrances suggested are a no no with wasps. To date, on up to 20 colonies treated a year, I have had no bearding or absconding and can remember only one going queenless - which could have happened regardless of MAQs. ....................

I think it’s time for a rotated treatment next year . Might go back to Apiguard but any other recommendations?
The aspect I am interested in is which treatments cause stress (not just whether the bees survive the treatment) and in the context of the Asian Hornet, anything that causes the bees to take the queen off-lay is undersirable beause it is an indication of stress. For that reason alone MAQ's is still top of my list.
Apiguard don't recommend feeding at the same time as treatment because it interferes with the take down of the product and it too can cause stress if the evaporation rate of the product is too high due to temperature. I have taken Apiguard off mid-way through a treatement when the temperature went over 30 degC and restarted when the heatwave passed - we have of course more of those to come :(
Incidentally, you said Apiguard is a six week treatment when it is actually 2 x 2 weeks so you can shave a bit off your tight timetable.
As an alternative you could try Apivar (Amitraze) and note that it is a 10 week treatment (some think six weeks but that is for a colony with no brood or brood at lowest level) and you can feed at the same time. That would help your timetable :)