Observant Beekeeping

[AdamD]

I had been reading the 03 Feb post in date order that the Italians were getting 2.5 - 3 tons before they died out in 1993. Consistent income is never guaranteed, just as winter losses vary considerably from year to year. Prior to 1993, the forage might have been generally better or there might have been pesticide poisonings on occasions which would hit colonies now and again. In the past 15 years, I have not seen pesticide issues, although reading some books, it seems to have been a more likely problem in the past, like trachael mites which went when varroa treatment came along.

It would be great if, in future, none of us need to treat our colonies. However to go about that has been difficult; the hobby beekeeper does not want to lose the stocks each winter if the loss can be avioded by a simple treatment. (We would not allow a pet to die of an infection for example) and the commercial beekeepers need a decent honey yield and therefore have needed to treat.

A tongue in cheek comment: If smaller, swarmy colonies only need one brood box and just a couple of supers, the amount of lifting is much reduced!

[NigelP]

There are hygienic queens available to purchase for most strains of bees, including the prolific Buckfast. You can buy F1's from £55 a queen. Tested F0 from isolated mating stations are around £400 a pop. The problem with VSH behaviour is, to date, the VSH behaviour doesn't get passed on to the next generation, which would make me slightly suspicious of any F1's derived from a VSH F0. So there are options to go treatment free with good bees if that is the way one wants to keep bees. But to me, it seems expensive, compared to paying around £5-7 a hive to treat with apivar or apistan. strips. The cost of a jar of honey/hive doesn't seem too expensive to me to ensure that my bees varroa levels are negligible.
I have got caught out in the past when I've had a hive or two that was making poor progress compared to others in the Apiary. When tested for varroa their numbers where huge. They were then treated with vaporised apibioxal which saw them back to normal a month or so later.....but honey yields were down on these hives for obvious reasons.

It matters not whether hobbyists treat or non treat, as many keepers are not that bothered about honey yields. One of our local organisations members are often heard "boasting" about their lack of honey. But it has always seemed strange to me that so many keepers are averse to treating their bees for varroa. They are livestock and need to be treated as such. I think it's Slovenia where it is illegal to not treat for varroa with government providing or subsidising the cost of treatment.

[warsaw-hive]

It feels like I'm always reading that bees are livestock and we therefore have a duty of care to them. What I can never decide is whether that is backed up by some legal legislation or if the author is just moralising.

Personally I think you are on shaky ground by classifying bees in a box as livestock, but even if one accepts that then you also have to acknowledge there are wild honeybees in the UK too. Since there is no separation in the mating of livestock bees and wild bees, doesn't that duty of care extend to the wild population too?

It seems to me that UK legislation is built on the premise that insects don't feel pain. That's how trillions of insects are able to be killed each year by pesticides, many of which work by starving the insect to death. What makes honeybees special? Why should their health be put above the right of the varroa mite to exist?

[MickBBKA]

Because varroa is a foreign invasive species alien to Britain and has no right to be here like grey squirrels, signal crayfish, Asian Hornets and should be eradicated when found. Quite simple.

[NigelP]

"Think of honeybees as ‘livestock’ not wildlife, argue experts"
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/thi ... ue-experts.
A Pig-in-a poke question really. bees legally are not livestock.
Many council run allotments rules do not allow live stock, but will allow bees.
My own opinion is that any species that has been genetically bred for enhanced properties should be classified as life stock, but this is not a legal definition.
However, anyone who allows any type of animal in their care to suffer and live with a heavy load of parasites that can easily be prevented is not doing their "pets" health any favours.

[warsaw-hive]

MickBBKA, simple maybe if the bees people use are native, but we know they are often not. Italian, Buckfasts, Carniolan could also be described as foreign invasive. Are you proposing eradicating them too? NigelP may have something to say about that. And by eliminating varroa in hives through treatment, you are not helping the bees in trees which still have varroa.

NigelP, I'm by no means an expert on ethics or philosophy, but the duty of care on livestock mainly comes about because the owner, by possessing the animal, has restricted the animals natural behaviour. So for example, by putting up fences you've stopped an animal migrating to fresh pasture and therefore it is your duty to make sure it is fed.

The obvious thing with bees is if you've taken all their honey then you have a duty to feed them with sugar. Or you could say because you've restricted their swarming and other natural defences against varroa you need to treat them.

But if you beekeep in a way that tries to work with their natural behaviour (which I suspect Bebblebrox's book does), then there is no duty of care. I have no duty of care to the birds that occupy my nest boxes.

It baffles me why beekeepers with a few hives in their garden are expected to act like bee farmers. I don't grow my vegetables like a farmer does, spraying everything in sight. Yes my potato, apple, etc yields are lower, but then my income doesn't depend on it and I'm not going to starve to death by not spraying. It's the same with my hives and beekeeping.

Varroa and bees will find a steady state where both can survive together, I don't have a justification for prolonging reaching that through treatment. Actually my bees have reached the surviving point already, but I would like the virus load lower.

[MickBBKA]

Warsaw-hive, the bees you mention are all Western honeybees of Apis Melifera with regional traits and did not evolve with varroa. We do not have the Eastern honeybee Apis Cerana which would be an invasive species which did evolve with varroa. By your logic I assume you must think that Asian hornets should be left to populate the UK

Nigel, during covid lockdown we all had DEFRA get out of jail cards as the government allocated honeybees 'livestock' so I think its official now

[NigelP]

But if you beekeep in a way that tries to work with their natural behaviour (which I suspect Bebblebrox's book does), then there is no duty of care. I have no duty of care to the birds that occupy my nest boxes.

Seems you really don't care for anything living in your garden
European bees and varroa are a recent phenomena where a parasite jumped species, so this was an artificial situation created by mans movement of bees. It's difficult to argue that keeping untreated bees with high varroa loads currently represents their natural behaviour. My experience suggests that bees with high varroa loads are struggling to survive rather than thriving.
Would you allow your pet cat/dog to live with tapeworms/roundworms etc when they can be treated. Your pet won't die if you don't treat, but it's quality of life will be severely affected.
And has been proven scientifically bees not treated for varroa bring in about 1/3 less honey than those treated.. Suggesting that the varroa load on untreated bees is having a severe affect on their "quality of life".
And that is what treatment free beekeeping is doing to your bees, basically the hive is "sick" but in most cases not terminally so.

[Beeblebrox]

NigelP mentioned:

"There are hygienic queens available to purchase for most strains of bees, including the prolific Buckfast..... The problem with VSH behaviour is, to date, the VSH behaviour doesn't get passed on to the next generation"

I've never paid for such bees. I simply started with swarms from local wild colonies. Unlike bees artificially bred for a single VSH trait, their varroa resistance is stable down generations (this is the default state of the wild population). And they don't produce aggressive offspring.

[NigelP]

VSH is not a single trait it involves at least 2 different traits. One is uncapping the cells and the second is removal of the larvae. This has been previously described for bees resistant to AFB.
I can't quite get my head round you describing your local bees surviving with varroa as the "default" stage. Their is no default for bees reacting to a new parasite.
As I've previously said they are alive but sick. i.e not at optimum health. You could easily prove this to yourself by treating some of your colonies and seeing the difference.