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General Q&A, Bee chat and only Bee chat please
 #10139  by MickBBKA
 01 Mar 2021, 17:20
Having now read Wally Shaws article in the BBKA mag I must admit I was very shocked by his lack of success using Pagdens method. His 50% rate was very suprising. I can not remember a time I have used it and found it failed. I would suggest I have had 100% success with it. I read the article twice to try and understand what I was missing. It was only when I had a second look at his diagram that I understood where imho he has got it wrong. ( Puts tin hat on and prepares for incoming fire ) As he states in the article the method involves removing the queen and flying bees from the brood. But in the diagram he puts a frame of brood in the centre with the queen and flying bees. So basically has not done an artificial swarm. A swarm has no brood. No wonder he fails so often. I usually do AS with foundation or comb or a mix of both if I have it. I have never had a colony swarm, abscond or raise swarm cells after this. Unfortunately a lot of less experienced beekeepers will read that article and take it as gospel coming from such a respected beekeeper.
 #10140  by NigelP
 01 Mar 2021, 18:00
I think my zero % success with Pagden combined with your 100%..... averages out at Wally's 50%. :)
Classic Pagden always has queen on a frame of brood with flying bees. Maybe you have inadvertently found the secret with your local bees by not adding a frame, which is not a classic Pagden.
A swarm has no brood but a prime swarm consists of 75% of the hives nurse bees ....so whichever way you look at it no method of swarm control even come close to reproducing what a real swarm comprises of.
 #10143  by AdamD
 01 Mar 2021, 19:57
What CAN work is if you have a clipped queen and the colony attempts to swarm. Pop the queen somewhere safe and move the hive to one side. Place a new brood box on the site of the old and put the queen in (Over a queen excluder is a good idea as a precaution). The swarm returns as the queen is not with them. The older foragers also return so you have foragers and the younger swarm bees, and the queen. And the bees in the supers of you put those on as well.

You have to be quick with this process as the swarm will return within around 1/2 hour if the queen isn't with them. (And as I have mentioned before, if you put a caged queen in the back of your estate car for a while as you are messing about with hive boxes, the swarm might just find her!).
 #10145  by Patrick
 01 Mar 2021, 21:56
Very Interested you do the AS with only foundation or comb throughout with no brood frame transferred with the Queen Mick.

I had read instructions to very definitely not to do that as “it would lead to absconding” and without questioning, never even tried it. Will give it a go out of interest later this year and see if I can improve my strike rate any.

I remember reading and re-rereading the instructions for Pagden but still consistently having issues and no honey crop worth shouting about, until finally going in search of alternatives.

Interestingly I am aware of beginner courses that teach it, although the tutors don’t themselves use it any more.
 #10170  by MickBBKA
 07 Mar 2021, 17:50
Hi Patrick, I also transfer all of the supers with the AS, no Idea if that makes any difference as I haven't tried it another way. I preferer to feed the brood left behind with 1:1 syrup rather than let them munch the honey. They won't gather any nectar worth having while they have no laying queen. I find the AS just carries on filling supers but sometimes they can draw and fill the brood comb with capped honey before the queen has had chance to lay in it. Makes fantastic brood comb once extracted though.
 #10208  by Chrisbarlow
 12 Mar 2021, 10:20
My view on swarm control/management is to think of it as a swarm triangle. One side is the queen, one side flying bees and one side house bees with brood.

Regardless if pagden, heddon, dameree, nuc or snelgrove, your removing at least one of these from the colony.

I'm big on verical manipulation these days mainly dameree.

However plenty of space for the queen can be a massive boon to minimizing any swarming instinct depending on the bee type IE except carniolans
 #10212  by AdamD
 12 Mar 2021, 10:57
Patrick wrote:
01 Mar 2021, 21:56
Very Interested you do the AS with only foundation or comb throughout with no brood frame transferred with the Queen Mick.

I had read instructions to very definitely not to do that as “it would lead to absconding” and without questioning, never even tried it. Will give it a go out of interest later this year and see if I can improve my strike rate any.

I remember reading and re-rereading the instructions for Pagden but still consistently having issues and no honey crop worth shouting about, until finally going in search of alternatives.

Interestingly I am aware of beginner courses that teach it, although the tutors don’t themselves use it any more.
A new beekeeper, trying a "tradition" artificial swarm will almost invariably have no spare drawn comb and only foundation to play with, so the queen on her frame of brood on the original site and 10 frames of foundation is not ideal; some tutors (but not all books) suggest placing a queen excluder under the brood box for a few days to stop absconding. But as has been discusses in previous posts, with a lack of wax-makers and only foundation to play with and a lack of brood-rearers, the artificial swarm is going to be knocked back in development hugely.
 #10223  by M1chael
 14 Mar 2021, 10:10
Hi all,
1st year bee keeping after getting a nuc in August last year, i have just completed the 3 new season course with the BBKA which really did help.
A Couple of Beekeeper who where in there second year were petrified of swarming almost to the point of giving up, before seeing them i was concerned but not overly worried as there are lots of method / youtube videos.

I have a National Hive with the viewing window on the brood, the bees are across all frames and they ball up to 9 of them when it really gets cold. This seems like a lot from what I've seen of other hives.

Should i add a super ?? or create a split when it warms up
 #10224  by Patrick
 14 Mar 2021, 11:23
Hi Micheal

Welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear about your second year beekeepers fears regarding swarming, be interesting to know what had caused that. You may or may not get swarm cells this year but plan as if you will and you will be prepared.

In the Southeast I would be putting a super on in the next couple of weeks and if it’s full of foundation rather than drawn comb, I would put it on without a Queen excluder to encourage them move up and to start to build out comb. After they have started to build out cells, put the super to one side shake all the bees back into the brood chamber, put on a Queen excluder and put the super back on. That way you know the queen must be in the brood box and they will continue to draw out comb. Once that is well drawn out, put on another super.

I am not a huge fan of preemptive splits only as swarm prevention. Congestion is not the only cause of swarm cells, they may decide after splitting to still raise cells, by which time your spare kit is already committed. Unless done deliberately to increase colony numbers with a side benefit for swarm prevention, it can quickly lead to multiple small colonies too small to bring in much honey and loads of expensive part filled kit.

I wait until I see cells before I consider splits, and do it vertically so sharing the same stand, floor and roof.

If she is not already wing clipped, I strongly recommend doing it. It takes a lot of the pressure off regarding swarming and combined with 7 day inspections should give you plenty of opportunity to respond if your bees start cells.

As I don’t know what kit you have, but make sure you have the kit you need made up before you may need it. Might be useful to know what swarm control method you are considering so we can offer any advice ? Swarming brings lots of opportunities, so think positive 👍
 #10254  by M1chael
 15 Mar 2021, 20:32
Patrick wrote:
14 Mar 2021, 11:23
Hi Micheal

Welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear about your second year beekeepers fears regarding swarming, be interesting to know what had caused that. You may or may not get swarm cells this year but plan as if you will and you will be prepared.

In the Southeast I would be putting a super on in the next couple of weeks and if it’s full of foundation rather than drawn comb, I would put it on without a Queen excluder to encourage them move up and to start to build out comb. After they have started to build out cells, put the super to one side shake all the bees back into the brood chamber, put on a Queen excluder and put the super back on. That way you know the queen must be in the brood box and they will continue to draw out comb. Once that is well drawn out, put on another super.

I am not a huge fan of preemptive splits only as swarm prevention. Congestion is not the only cause of swarm cells, they may decide after splitting to still raise cells, by which time your spare kit is already committed. Unless done deliberately to increase colony numbers with a side benefit for swarm prevention, it can quickly lead to multiple small colonies too small to bring in much honey and loads of expensive part filled kit.

I wait until I see cells before I consider splits, and do it vertically so sharing the same stand, floor and roof.

If she is not already wing clipped, I strongly recommend doing it. It takes a lot of the pressure off regarding swarming and combined with 7 day inspections should give you plenty of opportunity to respond if your bees start cells.

As I don’t know what kit you have, but make sure you have the kit you need made up before you may need it. Might be useful to know what swarm control method you are considering so we can offer any advice ? Swarming brings lots of opportunities, so think positive 👍

Thanks Patrick,

I appreciate your advise and will defiantly add the supers soon, i look forward to the upcoming season and posting on this forum, in answer to your question i saw a Roger Patterson you tube ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXov0XsG6qg&list=LL&index=1 ) which is a two frame Nuc useing a queen cell from the original hive.

As i only have 1 hive and hope to have 2 or 3 by end of the summer this method seemed to be the answer and with a tutorial by Roger Patterson that spells it out step by step, i thought this might be my best option.

I will defiantly look into the queen wing clipping as well

You spoke of of your preferred Vertical method which i think i have seen some where, does it have a name or do you have a link to a web page ?? as i will do a little research.

I have a National with full brood and soon to be 2 supers on top as per your advise above, i also have a the same again as a spare ready for a 2nd Hive.
I also have 2 Maisemore Poly national nucs with 2 supers and a feeder on each ( incase i over winter them a nuc i thought the polystyrene would be better in the cold) plus some nuc's I've made as i'm a had the materials.
Went a little mad with building through lockdown but thought better to have more than i need than to be caught short.
Thanks again for your reply.

Michael